Apply music theory of circle of fifths 5ths to playing

[bigbeardale]

Don't know if this would be a good place or not, but is there a section on here for theory?
I want to try to learn keyboard without using the casio chords and shortcuts if I can.
I think if we can share a lots of things we know in a sub on here, we all could learn a lot.
Here is a question if anyone can help.
I notice some people call the circle of keys the circle of fourths and others call it the circle of fifths.
What is the difference? Only thing I can see is the left to right keys go C to F on the fourths, and C to G on the fifths. Everyone I know says that you should learn the circle, even if you just do it by remembering one key a week or however you want. Play all of the chords around the circle after learning the chords.

bigbeardale
 

[Admin]

Don't know if this would be a good place or not, but is there a section on here for theory?
I want to try to learn keyboard without using the casio chords and shortcuts if I can.
I think if we can share a lots of things we know in a sub on here, we all could learn a lot.
Here is a question if anyone can help.
I notice some people call the circle of keys the circle of fourths and others call it the circle of fifths.
What is the difference? Only thing I can see is the left to right keys go C to F on the fourths, and C to G on the fifths. Everyone I know says that you should learn the circle, even if you just do it by remembering one key a week or however you want. Play all of the chords around the circle after learning the chords.

bigbeardale
 

Hi Dale 
( for benefit of other intermediate beginners)
Diagram below shows :
LETTER NAMES of the  12 KEYS which form 12 SCALES ( or 24 if you could Major and Minor of each )
Its called a circle of 5ths because CLOCKWISE :
Counting from C ....   c d e f g  We reach G by counting 5 letters
Counting fomr G ..... g a b c d we reach D by counting 5 letters
and so on round the clock .
there is more to than this but lets keep things simple for now.

personally wouldnt get too bogged in knowledge of the ENTIRE circle of 5ths - though its important to know something about for sure -unless youre a jazz player or a classical arranger (who its more important for to know the ENTIRE CIRCLE )

More, the practical usage of the circle of 5ths is important for, lets say. intermediate beginners- and understanding how and what to use from the circle. 

So :
1) which of these keys are far more important than the others - practically speaking ?

In pop songs, rock, country and Blues (by pop Im not talking about pop jazz- ( whitney houston type of arrangements ) mostly the keys with fewer sharps or flats are used -

So its about what style(s) one is aiming to play fluently in . in Jazz then very often the "advanced keys " come into play - almost in every song and the circle of 5ths is VERY important
In Pop Blues or folk styles learning ALL of it can be overkill - it can take up valuable time that you might want to use to develop other skills first- for instance getting fluent in Blues, rock and a lot of pop or country or even irish jigs
2) Is the order of keys in the the circle important to know ?

 Talking about "da  blues in C "

CHORD F7   to left   ---- C7 ( top of the circle ) ---- G7 (to the the right ) is common

But the central Chord is C7

ie 12 bar blues - 4 beats each bar ( or measure)

C7|F7 |C |C7 |
F7|F7|C7 |C7 |
G7|F7|C |G7 |

The order of the keys in actual Circle of 5th going the RIGHT  would be:
C | G  | A | E| B |F# |C#(or Db)|G# (more commonly known as Ab)|
1    2    3    4  5   6    7             8                       

D#(more commonly known as Eb )| A#(more commonly known as Bb )| F | and back to C
9                                              10                                            11                   12
The order of the Blues chords

C7|F7 |C |C7 |
F7|F7|C7 |C7 |
G7|F7|C |G7 |
did not follow the circle order and in 90% of music that is the case -- In fact it's a balance between

1) the varieties of order of chords - a slight randomness  - and
2) symettry of the circle of chords 5 notes apart

that creates a feeling of both order ( predictabbility so the ear doesnt feel like they are listenign to something weird [which is nice too though sometimes]  but not "too much order" 

With this in mind - here are some suggestions about using the circle of 5ths in a practical away  :

My suggestion is practice fragments only of the circle

I.e.
TRY
EXAMPLE 1
F | C |G (Blues in C and rock and a lot of pop or country or even irish jigs and many simpler styles would be based on those)

and repeat and repeat till feeling kind of natural in whatever finger spacing you chose for the chords (obviouosly a subject in itself )

THEN TRY
EXAMPLE 2

G|D|A (Blues in D and rock and a lot of pop or country or even irish jigs and many simpler styles would be based on those )  [ all sharp keys ]

THEN TRY
EXAMPLE 3

Bb| F | C (Blues in  F and rock and a lot of pop or country or even irish jigs and many simpler styles would be based on those ) [ two flat keys ]

Already those 3 examples are giving you access to 40% to 50% of the most common chord progressions used in songs for centuries including this century and many recent pop songs.

On this note - some great blues players only knew a few of those fragnments too -- its what they could DO with them that mattered - but that for another question or day


(if guests are or members are  reading this how about your opinion ? register and reply was it helpful or not - it should have brought some more questions up for you and feel free to ask them ! )

AND BTW always press the NOTIFY button above this posts members - if a topic interests you - then youll get email saying there was a reply 

[px410shelley]

Hi guys!
Just to add my two cents worth to this topic. My advice to bigbeardale - don't get too bogged down by trying to learn the entire circle of 5ths just yet - that kind of knowledge you will build up in time.  I agree with Mike, learn part of the cirle first. Perhaps find some sheet music that has 3 or so chords involved in it and master that. The keys of C, F and G are a good start, learn the basic chords within those keys.  Once you are playing songs you will be more inspired to play more involved and complicated music, and while you are attempting newer harder music you will be learning the circle of 5ths without realising it - you will be putting theory into practice! As you are  playing you will get used to chord changes etc etc.

Like Mike said as well - it all depends on what type of keyboardist/piano player you would like to be - a jazz pianist would find the circle very important knowledge to have, simply since when one is improvising it helps to know where they are going with regards to what chord changes work out right.

I could go on and on agreeing with Mike but what I wanted to basically say is, don't get too involved in theory, although excellent knowledge to have, keyboard playing is about enjoying it and technique and style is also important - get involved in your instrument!

Have fun!

Shelley

[bigbeardale]

Ok, thanks a lot Mike and Shelly. I think it is starting to click a little now. They say the IV and V chords are used in most songs, and on the circle, they are exactly to the right and left of the key you are in. Correct?
Here is a quote from your post Mike.
............................................
TRY
EXAMPLE 1
F | C |G (Blues in C and rock and a lot of pop or country or even irish jigs and many simpler styles would be based on those)

and repeat and repeat till feeling kind of natural in whatever finger spacing you chose for the chords (obviouosly a subject in itself )
..............................................

That finger spacing you are talking about. I think you mean the inversions right? I am still kind of new to the keyboard, so could you post some of the ones you think are the easiest and best sounding? I am in Alfred's Adult book 1, and just learned the one where you do the CEG with the thumb middle and little fingers on the right hand, then move just the little from G to A, and take off the middle and put the fourth on F and you now have the F chord wihtout even moving the thumb. That seems a lot easier that lifting the whole hand and moving it to FAC.
Hope I am not asking too many questions here, but every tip I can get, I would appreciate. The keyboard just seems so mind boggling to me with all of the different keys you can play in, sharps, flats, inversions, then if they dont tell you what finger to use on the melody in sheet music, you gotta figure that out too! Just how much can this 57 year old brain do at one time?

Thanks again guys,
Dale

[Admin]

They say the IV and V chords are used in most songs, and on the circle, they are exactly to the right and left of the key you are in. Correct?

 yes thats right

That finger spacing you are talking about. I think you mean the inversions right? I am still kind of new to the keyboard, so could you post some of the ones you think are the easiest and best sounding? I am in Alfred's Adult book 1, and just learned the one where you do the CEG with the thumb middle and little fingers on the right hand, then move just the little from G to A, and take off the middle and put the fourth on F and you now have the F chord wihtout even moving the thumb. That seems a lot easier that lifting the whole hand and moving it to FAC.

No harm in that way but other options give you more control of the melody with the chords - when there is melody too its always more fun

Hope I am not asking too many questions here, but every tip I can get, I would appreciate. The keyboard just seems so mind boggling to me with all of the different keys you can play in, sharps, flats, inversions, then if they dont tell you what finger to use on the melody in sheet music, you gotta figure that out too! Just how much can this 57 year old brain do at one time?

exactly i echo your thoughts too - it shouldnt be so hard but the presentation even in well known methods can be dry and uninteresting, and with too many concepts introduced at a time as well as set apart from actually playing tunes whilst you learn the left hand patterns I will put a link here to to excersises Im editiing first that i e written  so  you can play them in a day or two (always click the NOTIFY Button so you know when posts are updated)
Laters Dale and youre asking the exact RIGHT questions - too many dont ask and get bogged down just because they think some book or another is an authority that cant be questioned !     not so .....

[bigbeardale]

actually playing tunes whilst you learn the left hand patterns I will put a link here to to excersises Im editiing first that i e written  so  you can play them in a day or two /quote]


Looking forward to the link Mike. Thank You
Dale

[Admin]

 Ive posted the new tutorial with sound examples and printed music to     
POP SONG STYLE LEFT HAND CHORD PATTERNS with melodies Keyboards
Thanks Mike

[bigbeardale]

OK, Thanks Mike
I will go check it out.

[bigbeardale]

Hi Mike. Been a while since I have been here. I had a niece pass away, and had to leave the state for a while. How is everything going? I have to get back to the keyboard soon. My teacher has me on two old songs. One is called The end of the world in E flat, and the other one is called Groovy kind of love in G.
I am getting better at the fingering. Just kind of slow at chord changes, and inversions, but with practice, I hope to get better.
I can now do 2 octave C major scale with both hands, but real slow.
I can do G and E flat with right hand, but real slow.
Hope you are doing well,
Dale

[Admin]

remember there are many ways to play left hand chords. trying to use all your left hand fingers at once is a tricky proposition to keep things in time with melody - thats why course starts off showing beginners how to do chord as 2 seperate notes spread over 1/2 a measure each (  each note being a half note or minim )

.Its easy to do that on any chord as future courses will show
but for now here are extensions in left hand of level one course you donwloaded here to all main chords

if measure is
BEATS
1       2                     3         4
C up 5 notes to    G                     for a C Chord ( major or minor or even any 7th chord for starters)
little                   thumb
finger
D up 5 notes to    A                     for a D Chord                   "
E up 5 notes to    B                     for a E Chord                   "
F up 5 notes to    C                     for a FChord                   "
G up 5 notes to    D                     for a G Chord                   "
A up 5 notes to    E                      for a A Chord                   "
B up to               F#                     for a B Chord                   "

Bb up 5 notes to  F                        for a Bb Chord                   "
Eb up 5 notes to  Bb                        for a Eb Chord                   "
Ab up 5 notes to  Eb                        for a Ab Chord                   "
Db up 5 notes to  Ab                        for a Db Chord                   "
F# up 5 notes to  C#                         for a F# Chord                   "
 
that way it should be easier to keep the melody in right hand in time   

Continuiing to practice the full chords (all fingers at once ) as you  are doing will help long term yes  but still nice to give yourself different easier options like this at times too   

Laters have a good holiday!

Hi Mike. Been a while since I have been here. I had a niece pass away, and had to leave the state for a while. How is everything going? I have to get back to the keyboard soon. My teacher has me on two old songs. One is called The end of the world in E flat, and the other one is called Groovy kind of love in G.
I am getting better at the fingering. Just kind of slow at chord changes, and inversions, but with practice, I hope to get better.
I can now do 2 octave C major scale with both hands, but real slow.
I can do G and E flat with right hand, but real slow.
Hope you are doing well,
Dale